Construction Costs on 30a

Hi- been lurking for a while, really useful site, great info and have enjoyed most of the banter! We've been vacationing in SoWal for years with intent to buy eventually, so glad to see prices (apparently) taking a little bit of a breather from going up 20% a year. I am hoping it will be more of a balanced (ie: non speculative) market over the next couple of years with all the factors coming into play (interest rates, build out dates, storms, etc).

After cashing out of some West Coast property (if you think SoWal prices are high, go out to CA, Long Island, etc :shock: ), I will be able to jump on a great deal, not in a particular hurry. Have not decided to buy a lot or finished house, probably depends on what best deal is.

At this point probably looking for a non-overly planned (ie: Watercolor, etc) community, not on beach but within easy bike/walk, typical plank/tin roof FLA cottage style with average finishings. What cost per SF can I expect in SoWal at this point?

Much of the costs are determined by the materials used. The average beach home with medium grade finishings will run you around $145-$175 per heated cooled sf if you hire a builder to build it. Architect fees will be additional and can vary greatly.

This is one of the reasons that South Walton home prices are still a screaming bargain compared to CA and some other locations. In our Napa Valley community, which is obviously not coastal, construction costs for residential structures start at around $400 per sq. ft., not including the architect's fees or building permit fees and plan check for approval of the drawings. Still, real estate continues to increase in value at a high rate than anywhere in the nation. Why? Our growth management planning exerts a very strong control over how much is built every year...so supply and demand.

We are also very deliberate about protecting our agricultural lands and quality of life for residents already here and we make new development pay its own way. The developer has to offer more than just property tax (always a negative) and bed tax incentives. They are required to build a certain amount of affordable housing, pay for road and other infrastructure improvements, and provide open space and park land. I am working on two small luxury inns in our area, one a 40-room inn that will provide 14 units of workforce housing and a complete historic restoration and the other a 20-room inn that will provide at least 10 workforce units. It is the cost of doing business in a nice area that many people are drawn to. Makes me sad to see all these big developments going on in South Walton, especially hotel and resort projects, with absolutely no requirement that they contribute to the growing need for workforce housing for lower-income service workers. When there is finally a wake-up call, the need will be overwhelming and the acceptable projects smaller in scope so far less likely to make such requirements feasible.

There is at least one really good deal in Grove by the Sea at this time. Have you discovered that neighborhood? It is in a great location with the beach being a very short walk or bikeride away. Turn north on Andalusia Ave, less than one mile east of Seaside.

Makes me sad to see all these big developments going on in South Walton, especially hotel and resort projects, with absolutely no requirement that they contribute to the growing need for workforce housing for lower-income service workers. When there is finally a wake-up call, the need will be overwhelming and the acceptable projects smaller in scope so far less likely to make such requirements feasible.

I think it's already too late for most of SoWal. Only after residents find out they can't get a service technician, pizza guy or fireman to come to their house will they put 2-and-2 together...in the meantime the developers are counting their money and moving on to the next "upscale" project.

This is one of the reasons that South Walton home prices are still a screaming bargain compared to CA and some other locations. In our Napa Valley community, which is obviously not coastal, construction costs for residential structures start at around $400 per sq. ft., not including the architect's fees or building permit fees and plan check for approval of the drawings. Still, real estate continues to increase in value at a high rate than anywhere in the nation. Why? Our growth management planning exerts a very strong control over how much is built every year...so supply and demand.

We are also very deliberate about protecting our agricultural lands and quality of life for residents already here and we make new development pay its own way. The developer has to offer more than just property tax (always a negative) and bed tax incentives. They are required to build a certain amount of affordable housing, pay for road and other infrastructure improvements, and provide open space and park land.

Don't disagree with the community benefits, but this jacks the prices up to levels that force out most regular folks. I seriously doubt the majority of homeowners that currently are in SoWal could afford the beach life if it cost $400/sf to build a basic Fla cottage and the lot prices are doubled or tripled. A little more attention paid to intelligent growth in SoWal would be nice, but hopefully not overreglated, CA style.

There is at least one really good deal in Grove by the Sea at this time. Have you discovered that neighborhood? It is in a great location with the beach being a very short walk or bikeride away. Turn north on Andalusia Ave, less than one mile east of Seaside.

Funny you mention that, we have rented in there several years running. About five years ago we rented in there and the typical house was around$500K. They seemed to go up about 100K/year, last summer a few were for sale, all +/- 900K or so. I like the fact you can bike to Seaside.

Don't disagree with the community benefits, but this jacks the prices up to levels that force out most regular folks. I seriously doubt the majority of homeowners that currently are in SoWal could afford the beach life if it cost $400/sf to build a basic Fla cottage and the lot prices are doubled or tripled. A little more attention paid to intelligent growth in SoWal would be nice, but hopefully not overreglated, CA style.

I don't know your definition of "regular folks," but the people whom I place in that category were priced out of this area two years ago.

I agree with SJ. At some point, affordable housing is no longer "for sale" housing. South Walton reached that point two years back. Service jobs and other lower-paying jobs will require "for rent" properties where income levels can be qualified and rents controlled in association with the area income levels. Until fairly recently, there was affordable housing in the north County but that came to a halt with the price increases of last year. County Tax Assessor tells us that the County-wide property values were up some 70%.

Dormitory living may seem unattractive to some, but with the right amenities and pricing, it can be far more attractive than driving an hour or more each way to a job that doesn't pay that much to begin with. We have very nice "dorms" for our seasonable farm workers, who seem to like the convenience and the comaraderie and who do not miss the long drives on traffic-filled two-lane highways. They have clean showers/bathrooms, good and plentiful meals, and bigscreen televisions. In fact, one well known winery hired a "California cuisine" chef for their dorms, only to lose almost the entire workforce to another winery, who hired a cook to prepare traditional Mexican items! Some wineries hire almost the entire village from Mexico during picking season and they come back year after year. Medical care is offered via a charitable foundation called "Clinic Ole," one of the best supported charities in our Valley. There is a way to do this, but it takes a willingness to recognize that businesses are not a gift to the area. Rather, the gift is to them.

FYI, these dorms do not house just Hispanic seasonal workers. We also have a lot of kids who are interested in viticulture and winemaking, who works the harvest as part of their college programs. They can't afford housing, either and often don't have medical care but for Clinic Ole.

I agree with SJ. At some point, affordable housing is no longer "for sale" housing. South Walton reached that point two years back. Service jobs and other lower-paying jobs will require "for rent" properties where income levels can be qualified and rents controlled in association with the area income levels. Until fairly recently, there was affordable housing in the north County but that came to a halt with the price increases of last year. County Tax Assessor tells us that the County-wide property values were up some 70%.

Dormitory living may seem unattractive to some, but with the right amenities and pricing, it can be far more attractive than driving an hour or more each way to a job that doesn't pay that much to begin with. We have very nice "dorms" for our seasonable farm workers, who seem to like the convenience and the comaraderie and who do not miss the long drives on traffic-filled two-lane highways. They have clean showers/bathrooms, good and plentiful meals, and bigscreen televisions. In fact, one well known winery hired a "California cuisine" chef for their dorms, only to lose almost the entire workforce to another winery, who hired a cook to prepare traditional Mexican items! Some wineries hire almost the entire village from Mexico during picking season and they come back year after year. Medical care is offered via a charitable foundation called "Clinic Ole," one of the best supported charities in our Valley. There is a way to do this, but it takes a willingness to recognize that businesses are not a gift to the area. Rather, the gift is to them.

FYI, these dorms do not house just Hispanic seasonal workers. We also have a lot of kids who are interested in viticulture and winemaking, who works the harvest as part of their college programs. They can't afford housing, either and often don't have medical care but for Clinic Ole.

California is not the only place with dorm type housing for employees. In several Parks in the US, the National Park Service houses its seasonal employees in these dorms. Also, I know that the Nantucket Golf Club has a dorm for most of its employees, and they also provide a few houses for the managers. A year ago, I suggested that we need dorm type of facilities, but the developers showed no interest. They want no money on the table at the end of the day. They are quick to get in, and want to take their profits out just as quickly, so that they are not the last one standing, when the music stops.

They are quick to get in, and want to take their profits out just as quickly, so that they are not the last one standing, when the music stops.

Now, now, SJ, you are beginning to sound like Shelly.

The truth is not always pretty.

Now, now, SJ, you are beginning to sound like Shelly.

I have had many more than one developer tell me that in not so many words. Actually, one did use those words. That time to which they were referring is now. Slow sales and many homes sitting still. However, that has not stopped their building, but they are not buying much until they move more properties first.

One thing I know foe sho, Mr, Smiling Joe has a home in CA, ANYTIME he decides to come here!

This is a challenge in almost any resort/high end community (Aspen, Palm Beach, Park City, etc). I thought if you went up 331 toward DeFuniak and I-10 the housing was pretty affordable, no? Also, over the bridge West of Destin towards FWB is a little cheaper as well.

Napa valley is beautiful; I'd live in a tent to work there....
Georgia still won't allow wine shipments back home when we visit

Over the past year, housing and land in DeFuniak Springs and outlying areas has skyrocketed in price. I am not sure why this is. Two years ago, you could have one of those large, beautiful antebellum homes right on Lake DeFuniak for about $200K. Recently, a modern nice home on the lake sold almost immediately for well over $600K. Developers have also been speculating larger acreage for new large-scale development since the architect couple from Miami announced they are designing that community between DeFuniak and Freeport.

Yes, some of the ski towns in Colorado also offer very nice dormitory living that is seasonal. And tents are sometimes used, too. We have yurts that are used for seasonal labor and several luxury resorts along the coast where well-furnished yurts are the "rooms." Go figure.

As for shipping wine, the industry just won a major lawsuit before the Supreme Court that challenged states forbidding the direct shipment of wine from wineries to its out-of-state customers. When you come here, go to one of our mailing or shipping centers and purchase the $10 styrofoam carton that you can check as a piece of baggage on the airlines. We ship a case of wine every time we fly down to Florida and have not had a broken or leaky bottle yet. The airlines security often opens the case, but we haven't had any delayed baggage yet, either. Life's too short to drink bad wine.

Donna is correct. The prices of entry level homes in Defuniak Springs is out of reach for the $10 per hour laborer. Just as Crestview prices jumped, so have those in Defuniak. I know of a nice home on Lake Defuniak which just lowered the price to a bit less than one million. Interested? Of Course it is not entry level.

On another note, the wine/liquor distributors in GA, and some other states, grease the state politicians so much that they are about the only monopolies remaining. If you want to buy Skyy Vodka, you will have to go through Empire. If you want Ketel One, you have to go through National. etc, etc. Sure, you may buy your booze or wine at a store, but the stores get their products from a distributor, who is the registered agent for the region, or the entire state in most cases.

I have had many more than one developer tell me that in not so many words. Actually, one did use those words. That time to which they were referring is now. Slow sales and many homes sitting still. However, that has not stopped their building, but they are not buying much until they move more properties first.

You mean, people talk about SHELLY in real life? And how do you pronounce it if it's all in caps? Do you shout it?

Not picking on you (too much), SHELLY ... just wondering, how many locals lurk here without posting? Must be a lot.

P.S. regarding construction costs: Are they really that low on average? I thought if we were going to have to build a custom home on our Seagrove lot, which we won't be doing anytime soon, we could figure $200-225 a square foot with the current market. I also thought Watercolor, Rosemary, etc, were closer to $250 and up. As always it varies with builder, architect, and how much high end stuff you want in the house.

You mean, people talk about SHELLY in real life? And how do you pronounce it if it's all in caps? Do you shout it?

Not picking on you (too much), SHELLY ... just wondering, how many locals lurk here without posting? Must be a lot.

P.S. regarding construction costs: Are they really that low on average? I thought if we were going to have to build a custom home on our Seagrove lot, which we won't be doing anytime soon, we could figure $200-225 a square foot with the current market. I also thought Watercolor, Rosemary, etc, were closer to $250 and up. As always it varies with builder, architect, and how much high end stuff you want in the house.

The homes in WaterColor tend to be high end as opposed to the medium grade prices that I posted. When you start to add tongue and grove wood ceilings and add the $50K-$100K architectural fees it adds up. Plus, many builders will charge more to build in communities like WaterColor, where they are required to do more things, like cleaning up the property on a daily basis, replacing the entire section of road if the edge gets broken off by the construction vehicles, etc. You can easily get above $200 per sf when you are talking about building in WC.

Now, now, SJ, you are beginning to sound like Shelly.

Don't look now SJ...but I think you just got insulted

I imagine I'm one of few who finds it disturbing that vast areas of Florida (not just small "vacation" areas) are pricing out entire economic classes of our citizens--only to be replaced by third-world temporary workers.

Costs seem low, but you get what you pay for. There are a lot of million dollar homes here that do a good job of complying with hurricane code, but have absolutely terrible fit & finish- really bad paint jobs, cheapest possible interior doors and wire racks in closets instead of wood shelving, plastic trim, $20 lighting fixtures. We've hit Parade of Homes every year, and after seeing the impressively bad patch job on a 2x2 foot hole in the wall on a big Sandestin home, and the new house on Choctaw Bay in FWB where you could feel the living room floor was out of plumb just by walking across it, model homes with broken lighting fixtures, all kinds of obvious flaws like that, I've got a pretty short list of builders I'd trust down here.

Over all, I think Adams has slightly better build quality than a lot of the alleged custom luxury builders here. But it seems like all you've got to do is slap some granite counter tops in the kitchen, use a floor plan with a trophy bath, and have whatever flooring and paint color that's in fashion, and people pay insane prices for something where the quality isn't that great.

Another thing that drives prices up in Watercolor is that they've got much higher standards for fit & finish than other developments do- real solid core wood interior doors instead of plastic ones, better lighting fixtures, construction standards that require skilled craftsmen instead of day laborers, etc.

As for the temporary workers, anyone else notice that it seems like a lot more of the Eastern Europeans stayed the winter to work here instead of going back home? I'm wondering if we're starting to see something of a shift from the usual pattern of Bulgarian, Russian, and Polish college students who spent a couple summers in Florida to work on English skills and save up money for a down payment for an apartment back home when they graduated from college.

Keep in mind that there is a lot of fluctuation in construction prices. Obviously materials fluctuate with the world market prices. The materials used make a huge difference. All concrete construction ala Alys Beach is going to be as much as $300 a sqaure foot while a wood frame house with hardie plank siding could be as low as $150 a square foot. Rosemary Beach is expensive because the required wood windows, doors, siding, but those materials aren't meant for this climiate and require extensive up keep.

The biggest fluctuation is with contractors' fees. Many contractors have enjoyed building spec houses, but it has become difficult to sell any house so spec houses are risky. There will probably be many contractors who run out of their own projects to build and who will be looking for custom homes to do. The contractors' fee on a cost-plus contract is SoWal can be as much as 25% because there has been such a demand for builders. A normal contractors' fee (in say Chattanooga) is 8-12%. As work for contractors slows, I think many will be willing to negotiate lower contractors' fees. And if the contract isn't cost-plus, a contractor who needs the work will reflect that in his/her bid.

Costs seem low, but you get what you pay for. There are a lot of million dollar homes here that do a good job of complying with hurricane code, but have absolutely terrible fit & finish- really bad paint jobs, cheapest possible interior doors and wire racks in closets instead of wood shelving, plastic trim, $20 lighting fixtures. We've hit Parade of Homes every year, and after seeing the impressively bad patch job on a 2x2 foot hole in the wall on a big Sandestin home, and the new house on Choctaw Bay in FWB where you could feel the living room floor was out of plumb just by walking across it, model homes with broken lighting fixtures, all kinds of obvious flaws like that, I've got a pretty short list of builders I'd trust down here.

That applies almost anywhere, but I would imagine especially in SoWal. When the time comes for us to build, we will get on a contractor's waiting list if necessary, and I'll be doing a lot of flying up (if it is as easy as I hope it will be) to check on things. I'm sure there is a big difference between construction costs for crappy spec homes -- not to be confused with crappy Grayton sunsets -- and custom, quality built homes. Building an excellent home takes a lot of money and a lot more work on the owners' part (oversight, research). Yes, you can buy an already built new home or just write a check and let an available builder do his or her thing, but you are taking a big risk that way IMO. I do think that this is one of the ways RB, WC, WS etc can justify their higher pricing, because the quality seems to be better monitored throughout the construction and builders are used to higher expectations.

I see building costs and times only going up, up, up...especially when the "real" money starts to flow for Katrina rebuilding; then most of the skilled (and unskilled) labor and materials will be sucked to the West. (And that's considering NO hurricane landfalls this coming season.)

As for the temporary workers, anyone else notice that it seems like a lot more of the Eastern Europeans stayed the winter to work here instead of going back home? I'm wondering if we're starting to see something of a shift from the usual pattern of Bulgarian, Russian, and Polish college students who spent a couple summers in Florida to work on English skills and save up money for a down payment for an apartment back home when they graduated from college.

Mouse: Here's some insight on how the "Foreign Student Labor Trade" works:Foreign Student Labor

The Story Begins: "Two months ago, Izabel Mendon?a lived in a five-bedroom, nine-bathroom house in the capital of Brazil, Bras?lia, with a population of more than 2 million. Now, she makes sandwiches for a living at a Subway restaurant in Milton. Mendon?a, 19, is one of dozens of Brazilians who came to the Pensacola Bay Area as part of a work-and-travel program designed to help businesses tackle gaps in the local labor market.
What began more than a year ago as a short-term solution for food-service and hospitality employers has turned into a trend that is expected to continue as businesses struggle to fill low-wage jobs."

As I see it, it leaves lots of room for profiteering and abuse.