Lifeguards, Flag System, 20/20

Re: Need to Post and Enforce Flag System - More Drownings

Bingo. Media is very much about spin. Spin is about evoking emotion, not conveying fact.

Bill O'Reilly would be proud!

>>Sure, they may help and they may save a few lives but it won't solve the problem entirely <<

But if one of the lives they do save just happens to be an innocent child whose parents are just, plan stupid--I think that it is worth it.

I've seen people take their toddler in the water when a red flag was flying and EMS was performing CPR on a drowning victim just a few yards away--to admit on national TV that a hokey cartoon crab (Seemore) is the best South Walton can do to protect visitors is beyond insane (but insanely cheap).

On the other hand, how much would the county have to pay these lifeguards to live in the "high rent" South Walton district?? (Certainly more than $10-12 per hour) Truth be told, I think that is what is stopping the county from hiring lifeguards in the first place.

When addressing water safey it stands to reason that a lifeguard on the beach (even if they only help to save a few lives) is more feasible than a cartoon crab on the TV back at the condo.

Ok, I'm gonna just say it: Cops don't prevent crime or vehicle accidents, ski patrollers don't keep skiers from hitting trees and getting caught in avalanches, and lifeguards cannot prevent drownings or shark attacks. I know, I've been in both of the latter professions. We can put in lifeguards for a "feel-good" measure, but the bottom line is that we will still have victims of bad individual choices or pure bad luck. Families of drowning victims (and the press) are not more accepting of their tragedy because the beach was "protected by lifeguards."

Re: ABC 20/20 story on Walton County and tourist safety

See this 20/20 story that was on tonight about Walton County not reponding to the need for lifeguards on the beaches:

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=965757&page=1

I didn?t see 20/20, but I read the ?Dangerous Stalking Current? article, and found that it was unbalanced and incomplete ? not surprising :roll: . Anyone who lives here understands that the issue of protecting visitors to our beaches is much more complex and is currently being addressed by Walton County officials (including lifeguards). Very poor media coverage - just about as lopsided as possible!

The flag system and education/awareness campaigns over the last few years have been an important part of addressing the beach safety issue. Certainly more needs to be done, and I am confident that Walton County will find the best solutions that are right for our beach community (we are not Daytona Beach here) and implement them.

Re: ABC 20/20 story on Walton County and tourist safety

The article is pretty much the transcript from the show--what you don't get are the voice inflections, the graphics, etc. At least they help those who saw the program understand what to do if caught in a rip tide.

I think we would save more lives if side-impact airbags were required on every vehicle sold, rather than requiring life-guards on the beaches.

Re: Need to Post and Enforce Flag System - More Drownings

Kurt, we *are* trying to keep things in perspective. Fear of having children drown is not even slightly irrational. After motor vehicle related deaths, drowning is the second leading cause of injury death for children.

Did Kurt use the the term irrational? Do you mean unreasonable? I think there is a difference. Keep splitting those hairs.

As for hair-splitting about the use of the word stalking: Stalking may not be completely correctly used in their headline, but referring to their use of it as "anthropomorphism" isn't exactly correct either. Anthropomorphism is the attribution of human motivation, characteristics, or behavior to inanimate objects, animals, or natural phenomena. Since animals stalk as well as humans, it's not technically anthropomorphism to use the term "stalking". (Though there may well be another more correct term for it.)

I don't think you're splitting hairs. I think you're contradicting yourself. The portion in bold italics is a standard definition, and stalking is a human behavior, which means Kurt used the term properly. If you're one of our many SoWal realtors who used to be a former elementary school english teacher, I can understand your comment even if incorrect, otherwise it's a pretty weak comeback.

Sometimes it takes headlines like this to get people's attention in all the noise of everyday life.

That is pathetic.

The problem is indifference on the part of the county to reducing the risk of drowning, and 20/20 pointed that out very accurately, in my opinion.

Oh! So the problem is not people actually drowning or the lack of lifeguards, but the county's indifference?:roll: Do you have an axe to grind with the county and were happy to see us ridiculed? You're welcome to sell your property and buy a rental in a community which currently has lifeguards.

Re: Need to Post and Enforce Flag System - More Drownings

It isn't unreasonable to want lifeguards on the public beaches. It is unreasonable to say that people died because there weren't any there.

I knew a man who was killed in an avalanche while mountain climbing. There were warnings that day, stating that avalanches were moderately likely, but he went climbing regardless. He was not killed by the lack of rangers in the area preventing people from climbing. He was killed by being in an area where avalanches were warned to be moderately likely.

Fox... dude... lay off.

Relax and allow all to express themselves as they will... ;-)

Prepare for more incoming...

"Shark Attack: Predator in the Panhandle" tonight at 9:00pm on the Discovery Channnel.

I have been caught in two rips on Emerald Coast. The first was during the Gulf Coast triathlon in 1993 or 1994 at Panama City Beach. We had an out-and-back swim of 1.2 miles. The ?out? part seemed to go OK, but when I turned to return it was if I was absolutely swimming in place. I made little headway to the shore and was confused because of this. Finally, a swim marshal in a kayak directed me to swim laterally to shore and then to the beach and I finally made it in. It took me around 50 minutes for that swim, when a distance of 1.2 would normally take in the mid-20?s. I was totally exhausted, never recovered, and it turned out to be my slowest half-Ironman triathlon ever.

The next time I encountered a rip I knew a little bit of what to expect and how to react. It was during a triathlon held at Seaside in November. When we started the race we were pulled out by a rip at an amazing pace as I recall ? we were out a 1/8th mile in no time ? literally seconds. I turned parallel to the shore, and ultimately rounded the final buoy to go in and ended up with my fastest time ever in a .5M swim.

Obviously, I can testify that rips can be a problem even for someone with decent swim skills. For a tourist, without knowledge of the Gulf and local conditions, and limited swimming skills, I?m sure it must be a terrifying experience.

Fundamentally, I do agree with those that argue that this is a matter of personal responsibility. But, pragmatically, I think perhaps something more can be done than our friendly crab. I would think that a pilot program of lifeguards at the major public beach accesses in SoWal might be considered. Say what?

Fundamentally, I do agree with those that argue that this is a matter of personal responsibility. But, pragmatically, I think perhaps something more can be done than our friendly crab. I would think that a pilot program of lifeguards at the major public beach accesses in SoWal might be considered. Say what?

very reasonable suggestion. I have read local news reports in the last few months that Walton County is considering options for lifeguard programs. But none have been approved as far as I know. I hope SWFD will develop a beach patrol/lifeguard program that will provide highly effective patrol and rescue - making it worth the investment.

How much do lifeguards earn?

I personally would hate to see lifeguards stationed on our beaches. One of the things we love most about our beaches is being able to enjoy the beauty and sereness without being watched over. Folks surely know that danger exists if you venture out too far into the ocean. Educating the public is the key. We already have the flags out that warn of danger. Parents are responsible for their children; putting a lifeguard out there may just give some parents a false sense of security. I personally love things just the way they are!!

I personally would hate to see lifeguards stationed on our beaches. One of the things we love most about our beaches is being able to enjoy the beauty and sereness without being watched over. Folks surely know that danger exists if you venture out too far into the ocean. Educating the public is the key. We already have the flags out that warn of danger. Parents are responsible for their children; putting a lifeguard out there may just give some parents a false sense of security. I personally love things just the way they are!!

I feel as though I need to pipe in on the issue. So, here it is! When school is out for summer break, I think that lifeguards should be on the beach for the childrens safety. Here in SoCal, we have lifeguards on the beach all summer. Summer only, with a warning on the beach that No lifeguard is present during non-summer times. Bottom line is, you cannot rely on kids to make a decision for themselves, the parents need to educate them of the dangers, and follow up by supervising them at all times near the water.

(Regarding kids) the parents need to educate them of the dangers, and follow up by supervising them at all times near the water.

The real isssue at hand? Have more people been taking off those thinking caps?

How much do lifeguards earn?

Great question. My guess for this area would be around $8.50 per hour, but I don't imagine the County will be hiring, firing, training, supervising, etc the lifeguards. I think we will see someone get a contract to staff lifeguards at particular locations along the beaches. This has been coming for a long time, and I think we will see something soon. If you don't want them, I suggest you begin a strong campaign against them. It is only a matter of time. My guess is that the County will use a bed tax to pay for them, so money is not an issue.

Other questions I have are who is getting the contract for the Lifeguard Services? How will we find enough 16 year olds in this area who are willing to except the Lifeguard wages? Do the 16 yr old lifeguards call the Sheriff's Office to issue tickets when the public ignores their warnings? ...

As has been asked earlier, how much should a lifeguard earn? Where are they supposed to come from? My guess is that we would need to tap the 16 ? 21 year old surfer crowd. This is appropriate, as they know our beach better than most people do.

But, when we get the young lifeguards, would our vacationers actually listen to them? Probably not as well as many of them listen to our sheriff?s deputies and SWFD personnel when they try to enforce the flag system, which in general isn?t very well. The "false sense of security" issue is very real, too.

Then, what happens when one of our county-employed lifeguards drowns trying to save someone? During ?Black Sunday,? several of our emergency response personnel were almost overcome. Who gets the lawsuit and the liability then?

I don?t know what the answer is, but I?m almost inclined to follow the advice of our BCC Chairman. Stay out of the water, or if you do go in, don?t try to swim out to Cuba. Up to your waist is plenty deep to cool off and enjoy our Gulf.

"The Destin Beach Safety Patrol was initiated by Chief Tuffy Dixon of the Destin Fire Control District in Destin, Florida. Chief Dixon was deeply moved to action on a day that he could not ignore as a professional firefighter and a human being. Chief Dixon began the Destin Beach Safety Patrol days after June 8th, 2003. It was on this day that the lives of 9 families, that were visiting on vacation on June 8th, 2003, would also be changed forever. Tragically, 9 people lost their lives in the Gulf of Mexico that year. The beaches of Destin, Walton County and Pensacola all suffered the tragic loss of life of loved ones and friends. "


for info about Destin's Beach Safety Patrol Program

Re: Need to Post and Enforce Flag System - More Drownings

This board is about all our opinions and knowledge, mine is not any more important than anyone elses.

I'm not saying the the basis for the story is ridiculous, and I see both side of the issue. I'm saying rip tides don't "stalk". Anthropomorphism used in a completely innapropriate way to sensationalize a story and prey on the public's primal fears, inciting those fears to sell advertisements and increase profits.

The culture of fear produces and devours headlines like that. Don't give in to unreasonable fears, like hurricanes, sharks, snakes, currents, mold, or sushi. If driving a car was a primal fear, we'd never leave the house. Be a little more skeptical about the content and the motives. Keep things in perspective.

I must admit to admiring generators more when at Home Depot. Jim Cantore, where are you!?

Re: Need to Post and Enforce Flag System - More Drownings

My brother-in-law had all the information about the dangers indicated by the red flags and he still CHOSE to go into the water. It was his responsibility. I have children the same age and I CHOSE to keep them off the beach.

There would have to be a lifeguard every 200 yards to patrol the entire beach. You can have lifeguards, laws, fines, jail time, etc. and that is still not going to prevent every drowning. People will find ways to get around every law and go into the water when they shouldn't. People disobey laws all the time--speeding, seat belts, running stop signs, etc. I understand that many of the drownings have occurred without warning and I agree that lifeguards would help in some situations.

I had a two-year-old son who almost drowned in a public pool even though he was 5 feet from a lifeguard. I am the one who pulled my son out of the water. If I had relied on the lifeguard to protect him, my child wouldn't be alive today.

We have choices and we have consequences. We are responsible for our own actions.

Anyone, I mean anyone who has witnessed a lifeguard save someone caught in a rip current[we used to say undertow] could not possibly take your side of the argument. Not anyone standing on the beach, and certainly not the potential victim. I have seen dozens of people rescued from drowning and I'll never forget the images of those folks stumbling back onto the beach. Minimum wage young men and women performing heroic acts. What is one life worth? This has got to be the one of the bigger no-brainers.

Re: Need to Post and Enforce Flag System - More Drownings

Anyone, I mean anyone who has witnessed a lifeguard save someone caught in a rip current[we used to say undertow] could not possibly take your side of the argument. Not anyone standing on the beach, and certainly not the potential victim. I have seen dozens of people rescued from drowning and I'll never forget the images of those folks stumbling back onto the beach. Minimum wage young men and women performing heroic acts. What is one life worth? This has got to be the one of the bigger no-brainers.

FYI - undertow and ripcurrents are two seperate things. We have mostly ripcurrents in this area.

I don't know of any surfers around here who would be willing to give up surfing for minimum wage and work. People in So Wal have difficulty getting drunk people to show up to work for $15/hr, and even then, they won't work after noon on Friday, forget weekends, and sit still in the hot sun -- well, maybe with a 12-pack of Bud.

I've seen the arguments against having lifeguards, and I hear where you're coming from. Some have said to stay in shallow water to protect yourself. But I've heard of drownings where people were caught up in a rip current starting in relatively shallow water.

I'm a pretty good swimmer, and I think that I understand the strategy for saving myself from a rip current. I'm just not strong enough to save someone else. However, if I were to see someone I love having trouble in the water, of course I would risk my life to try to save him/her. Unfortunately we'd probably both go under. This is where a lifeguard would help. He/she would hopefully have the training and the strength to save another human being. At some beaches, lifeguards have SeeDoo's so they can get to an endangered swimmer much faster than someone could swim to them.

Yet another dilemma! Both sides of the argument have valid points.

Anyone, I mean anyone who has witnessed a lifeguard save someone caught in a rip current[we used to say undertow] could not possibly take your side of the argument. Not anyone standing on the beach, and certainly not the potential victim. I have seen dozens of people rescued from drowning and I'll never forget the images of those folks stumbling back onto the beach. Minimum wage young men and women performing heroic acts. What is one life worth? This has got to be the one of the bigger no-brainers.

Bob, you are completely misrepresenting my arguement. I did not say that lifeguards aren't beneficial nor did I say that they shouldn't be implemented. My arguement is that lifeguards are not going to prevent every drowning and that it should be our first responsiblity to protect ourselves and our families from dangerous gulf conditions.

The "no brainer" is that I'm not going to rely on a 16 year old kid to keep my family safe. If a lifeguard makes you feel safer then more power to you.

There is nothing like a few shark attacks to keep people out of the ripcurrents. Any thoughts on bringing sharks closer to the beach to help prevent more drownings. Afterall, as I predicted, we have had more deaths from drownings than from shark bites this year. What do you say?